How Kyle Roof From Page Optimizer Pro Gets Big Results From On-Page SEO

We've got SEO expert Kyle Roof on the podcast this week.

Kyle is involved in a ton of different businesses, from the on-page SEO tool PageOptimizer Pro (POP) to his SEO agency and training over at High Voltage SEO. He's a familiar face at SEO and online marketing conferences around the world, and he has a lot of experience and knowledge after being in the industry for almost 10 years and running more than 400 SEO tests.

For the first part of this interview, Kyle discusses how to best optimize your posts for your target keywords, how to use ‘people also ask' terms, how to best use supporting content or your niche site, link building, and much more.

Then, in the second part of the interview, Kyle analyses two posts from my outdoor niche site Own The Yard with POP. You can see the reports that the tool generates and hear his recommendations on how the post could be improved from an on-page SEO perspective.

It's a very interesting discussion and I'm sure you'll enjoy it – this one's probably best to watch as well, so that you can see how POP works.

Watch the Entire Interview

Resources mentioned in the episode:

• Kyle's previous Niche Pursuits podcast – more on on-page SEO tests and optimizations
• Internet Marketing Gold – SEO courses and community
• SEO Flight Club – YouTube channel

Read the full transcription:

Jared: welcome to the niche pursuits podcast. Today. We are joined by Kyle roof. Kyle is an OnPage SEO master, and what we have in store for us today is a masterclass page. SEO. Uh, Kyle runs an SEO agency. He's the founder of internet marketing.gold. And he's also the founder of pop page optimizer pro, which is an on-page SEO software tool that a lot of internet marketers.

And today we go through a real masterclass in on-page SEO. Uh, we start by going through the three most important types of search terms and kind of more importantly, where you need to place these search terms on your page. He boils it down to an 80 20 approach, really where you're getting 80% of the value, uh, with only about 20% of the work, because you know exactly where you need to place these search terms and exactly how to identify them.

Speaking of research, we talk about how to research, which terms to use in your page, which terms matter versus which ones don't matter. We talk about using people also ask or PAA terms and when to put those on your page versus when to build supporting. We spend a good amount of time going into depth on supporting content, what it looks like, how to structure it, how to internally link it and how to use it to rank your main search queries are the main terms that you want to rank for on your page.

We touch on links, which page to build our pages to build links to. And then the second half of today's interview is a deep dive on several URLs or several articles on Spencer's website on the R dot. I might recognize on the yard.com from Spencer's a niche niche project case study. And so we dive into two different URLs and Kyle breaks them down in their entirety, giving recommendations on what to do and talking through different examples about the approaches he would take, even going through the order of operations.

Cow's been generous enough to offer the niche pursuits audience, 15% off of pop, uh, and again, that's page optimizer pro, uh, and that's the tool that he uses to go through and break down and, and. Dissect what needs work on these two pages from Spencer's website? So again, really a good interview. If you're interested in on-page SEO, you're going to get a masterclass in, in that today.

You can also take advantage of the 15% discount, um, uh, with page optimizer, pro hope you enjoy today's on page, uh, uh, masterclass and without further ado, let's dive in

Hey everyone. And welcome back to the niche pursuits podcast. Really excited that you're joining us today. We have Kyle roof, uh, and really, really excited about some of the topics we're going to be, uh, gonna be diving into Kyle Heights.

Kyle: I'm doing great. Thanks so

Jared: much for having me. Yeah. Yeah. Welcome to the podcast I believe.

And this is your second or maybe even more. I did a, I did notice as I was repairing that you were on the podcast a couple years ago, talking to Spencer about a lot on page stuff.

Kyle: I think that's right. I think I was here about two years ago, three years ago and

Jared: yeah, that sounds familiar. I think it was pre pandemic.

I think we can almost note everything in history by pre or post when all that started. So yeah.

Kyle: I do have to say the, uh, the podcast has picked up quite a bit since you've taken the home. I don't know about

Jared: that, but, uh, I think at the very least it's just a different face now. So, um,

Kyle: just to see these right.

He doesn't see this at all.

Jared: No, not at all. Yeah. So, I mean, there's just, there's, there's really so many things that, um, that we could touch on with you. I mean, you have a background, uh, just reading off your resume, you run an SEO agency at high voltage SEO agency. Um, uh, obviously I think a lot of people in the industry will have heard of page optimizer pro or pop, which is on page SEO tool, uh, uh, internet marketing.gold, which is, uh, to my understanding where you kind of share a lot of your findings and built a community around that.

Can you give us a little bit of background on how all of these things have evolved and, and where you're at today so that everybody listening can kind of understand and catch up?

Kyle: Sure. A lot of it all comes out of the agency. Uh, just things that we're doing within the agency. And we realized that people would like it.

So, um, the agency, we have offices in Phoenix, uh, Berlin and Melbourne, how we do local to national international. We have clients across the globe. Um, and while doing that type of work, uh, we built page optimizer pro internally. And as a way to, um, do the counting that we wanted to count. And I wrote the algorithm for it to then find edges.

And then I showed it to some SEO buddies and I was like, would you like this? And they're like, I would like that. And so, um, the, the tool came out of that and then internet marketing gold is a place where yeah, we run tests on Google's algorithm. And, um, my courses are there, there were over 33 courses that people get access to.

But, um, again, that was just, Hey, you know, this is what I'm doing. Would you like to see it? People like, yeah, like I'd like to see it. And, uh, so that's kind of where that came out of. That's a lot

Jared: of courses. I did not know there were so many on there. I mean, it's only what a couple of years old now. Right. I believe it was.

I saw in there 2019

Kyle: that's right. A couple years in. And, um, uh, we just, what we realized is that people like the tests and the tests are great because you're kind of finding out what is happening with Google right now, but then you also didn't want to be able to apply that and then, okay, how can I take that knowledge and then actually do something with it.

And that's where the course has come in, where we kind of bridge that gap between understanding and actually doing. And, um, then the, so you get actual steps out of the courses to kind of use the framework of a scientific approach to SEO, a mathematical approach to SEO, and then take it and actually then implement it using different strategies to start, as you might like to say,

Jared: Yeah, I listened to your, uh, your interview with Spencer from a couple of years ago, and it was mostly on testing, how to set up tests, how you go about testing, how you make sure that, um, you know, you don't get corrupt data.

And, uh, I'll be honest. I have a background. My major in college was actually econometrics. So I'm quite used to regressional analysis and all this kind of stuff. Although I don't do that anymore. And I have to admit I've listened to the interview and was just, I felt exhausted by the end of it at the, the, the prospects of what goes into testing.

So I think you, I think you've really hit upon something like you, not only doing the testing, but then bringing the actionable steps that can come from that. I mean, that's really where, uh, I think a lot of people, uh, really lean in, right. And really get a lot of value out of it because testing is hard and then trying to get clean tests that give you actionable results is E.

Kyle: Yeah. The biggest thing within SEO is, is being able to repeat the process. You know, you, you got the result and then it was within this environment. Can you repeat it and with the same conditions and get it again. And, um, kind of what you kind of get into is the idea of, you know, you flip a coin and its head five times in a row.

The likelihood of that happening is pretty low and that gets you almost into statistical significance that the coin is ribbed. And so basically we're looking for those situations where you can find where the coin is rigged, where we can say with confidence, with a high degree of confidence, that if we do this, the result will be that.

And, um, yeah, that takes a lot. It's, it's a lot of effort

Jared: to fear. That's a great analogy. That's a great analogy. Um, yeah, so everyone listening, I, I really recommend if you want to understand and learn a bit more about that detailed process of testing and, and Kyle's approach to it, go back and listen to that episode.

Um, and we'll kind of dive straight into today's topics so that we can, uh, we can. Just hit the ground running. And today really we're going to focus on, I guess, the best way to put it as like an on-page SEO masterclass. I think at the end of the day, that's a bit of what, um, of certainly of what you're known for.

And I say a bit of what you're known for, and I, I put that in air quotes, but let's, let's talk through on-page SEO and I'll premise it by just saying this as someone who does SEO, uh, who has websites, but also does not consider themselves to be any sort of an on-page SEO expert. I think as an industry, we obviously talk a lot about content and we talk a lot about back links and all the details there.

And I don't want to say we paper over the cracks with on-page SEO, but I think there's this void of, I know I need to be focusing on, on page SEO. But what do I do, but where do I go? But what are the details there? So I think today's going to be a really great deep dive into it. And, um, and I just thought I'd kind of surface that question, that topic by asking you to start off with why such a focus, why is it so important to focus on, on page SEO?

When we spend so much time talking about other things like content and backward,

Kyle: Well, I think that still to this day, the, the, the thing that will do the heaviest lifting for you in SEO is what you're putting on a page. Um, it does the most, uh, uh, it has the biggest impact. And, um, I like to think of, um, backlinks to, OnPage kind of as driving a clutch, you know, if you give a little more gas and then you would pull away.

So the idea is that, uh, the more you do with the on-page, the less backlinks you will, you will need. And so if you can dial in the on-page, um, uh, you can really reduce the stress that comes into a lot of SEO. Um, the, the other thing you run into is that the one thing that you control entirely as is your own site, you know, what you are putting on your site is something that you have complete control over, and you have absolutely no control over backlinks.

Once they're out into the ether, they are out there and Google might like them might not go like them for a little bit, might not, but if you're focusing on on-page. That's the, the most evergreen thing you can do. And, and as you know, creating content is not cheap, so you don't want it. You want to also maximize the, uh, the value you're getting out of the content that you're taking the time to create, because you wanna be able to give Google something to their likes.

Um, then kind of one of the bigger things, or the themes that when I speak is that, you know, Google really can't read, you know, um, Google is a, is an algorithm. And, um, you need to give the algorithm, the map that it wants, you know, a lot of people get upset. They think that Google is doing some sort of value, judgment.

Like, you know, the Google read their articles. Like, man, I like this article. I like this one better, you know? And, um, I think everyone also realizes fairly quickly, um, that, you know, you'll, you'll put up a piece of content maybe that I know this has better content. I've been in the industry X years longer than that means they don't, they're not even doing what I do.

You know? Like you hear it all the time. So you didn't, I think people are realizing the Google, perhaps isn't making a valid. They're not sure what Google is actually doing, and Google's actually just doing math. So it's looking at your content and it it's, it's running the no. And you wanna be able to give Google the map that it needs now, uh, people often tune out quickly when they hear about math.

I don't think any of us enjoyed it that much, except for the handful of nerds like yourself,

Jared: maybe

party, let's put it that way.

Kyle: Let's talk about some math questions. I actually really like math. Um, I, I was not good at math though of, uh, school math. Um, that really wasn't, you know, calculus and trig and algebra two is about when I checked out. But, um, then I got into, um, uh, statistics and probability and, and that type of math.

And I was like, oh, I actually really liked this and I really enjoy it. And that's actually what I do most of the time is I'm working with statistics and probability and a lot of standard deviations and stuff like that. And that's where I started to Excel. So I do, I do enjoy that today. But the point of the point I'm trying to make is you don't have to worry about that.

You know, you can, you can get into it if you want it, you can really nerd out on it. But, um, I think what we'll talk about today is just where I think, uh, what you can do without really having to stress on the math too much, um, and, and do very effective on page so that, you know, you're getting the value you can get out of your content.

Jared: Okay. So let's dive in, let's start talking about on page SEO and I will tease that we're going to go through some live examples. Spencer's been generous enough to offer up own the yard.com, um, which was his case study from niche site project four. And so this isn't going to just be a theoretical conversation.

Uh, we're going to really dive in and, um, I think maybe we'll even for those who will watch it on YouTube, get, get a screen share so we can actually even get some real visuals here, but, but enough teasing, like let's dive in to on page SEO. And let me, let me kind of turn it over to you to start to walking us through the most important factor.

Kyle: Sure thing. Uh, I think the first and foremost is you need to understand that there are important terms. Google's looking for certain types of terms, and they're really kind of three categories. The one that everybody knows is, is your target keyword. You know, the thing that you're trying to rank for that is obviously one of the important terms.

Now these are variations of that term. And if you're, if you're into PPC phrase match might be a good way to think about that where, uh, you've got portions of your phrase, uh, if your keyword was best purple Frisbee, purple Frisbee. So like, or best Frisbee or, um, you know, that those little pieces of your, of your face are variations and then really close synonyms, such as lawyer or attorney they're the same.

I'm very close. Synonyms are, uh, are in the variations. And the last thing are contextual terms. Um, I'll let people use the term LSI, uh, old school. SEO's hate that term and they're right. It is, it is a lazy term, but it's kind of the term that the industry has adopted. So they might just want to get over themselves.

Uh, but what we're talking about are terms of it, they give context and meaning to, um, to what you're talking about, because you can, you can talk about the same concept, but in a lot of different ways and have completely different meanings, such as the example, I give all the times with a kitchen, you know, so stay safe refrigerator.

You're talking about an actual kitchen, but love heart family celebration. You know that the kitchen is the heart of the home, and that's where you go to celebrate and come together and share, uh, you know, feelings. And, and that's two different conversations about a kitchen and contextual terms. I help kind of guide what you might be talking about.

So those are the three things that Google will be looking for, but then Google looks for them on the page and Google. Isn't just looking at the page as, as a whole. Google's looking at very specific places on the page. Uh, places on the page are more important than other places. Google has assigned a weight or an importance score.

If you will, to different areas on the page, do you want to make sure that you're getting those important terms in the most important areas? Um, those, those support areas could get into the hundreds, but fortunately we really don't have to worry about too many of them. The ones you need to worry about the most, the ones that are most important, what's really nice is they've been the most important for years, years, and years and years.

And they will continue to be, you know, when, when you think about how Google does updates go, gets that stuff on the fringe, where people are trying to cheat, you know, at the edge of the bell curve, but that middle of the bell curve, that's where a lot of on-page sits. And a lot of that's not going to change for quite some time.

Um, but the, the top four places to put a keyword would be in your title tag, uh, often called a meta title. That's the title that certain agency, uh, your H one, that's the visible title on the page, the human seat, uh, within paragraph, uh, tags. So that's the content on your page and then within your URL, The kind of the dirty secret of, of SEO, the 80 20 is if you were to put your target keyword in those four places, you've probably done half of SEO right then and there

Jared: that's got too front of the bag.

Kyle: A lot of people really try to overthink it. There's a lot of weird advice out there about, um, you know, your title that you show, sir, uh, Google and the title you show people should be different because Google wants some uniqueness, none of that. Um, you need to get your keyword if it's, if it's that, if it's the one that's important to you, you need to get it into those places because they are the strongest.

Um, you are

Jared: literally, uh, you've already, you've already stolen a couple of my questions. I think you and I are reading the same types of things. Um, can you, there is a classic use case that people present for title tag versus H one variations, um, using the main keyword in your title, tag, your H one you're you're, you know, a high ranking H two on the page.

Um, can you get into a little bit of details on that, uh, and talk through like, why you just commented on that, you know, the differences between your title tag and on each one and where the, where the variations are?

Kyle: Well, so what's interesting is through testing, we've known for years that Google really favors the, that your title tag and your H one are the same, uh, tests.

Every test shows that. And within the last month you might've noticed the Google's now. Titles. Right. And was Google X and made the announcement like, oh, by the way, if you have the content on the page, we actually prefer that it's something we've known for quite some time, so that if you use your title tag and your H one is the same, you have a higher likelihood of Google, not rewriting, uh, your, your title within the SERPs and actually using the title that you want.

Um, but that's something we've known for a long time, just through testing. The Google prefers it, that when you've got your, your and your title tag is the same, uh, those pages perform better than pages that have tried to get crafty. Um, the, the thing that you run into it goes, it goes back to again, Google can't read Google.

Can't look at and be like, oh, this is a wonderful piece of content. This is so well-written that Google isn't looking at any of those things. So you really have to make it obvious for Google what this is about and the places that make it the most obvious or that group, a, those, those strongest places to put your, your keyword in there.

So you really need to get your keyword into those places. One caveat is that if you have an established page and it's ranking and it's bringing in traffic and it's bringing an ROI, don't change your URL. If you realize like, oh, I don't, I don't have my keyword in there. Don't change that because you're giving Google a brand new page and then Google will refactor.

And there's no guarantee you're going to get back to where you were. So you only want to do this on new pages going forward or pages that you might've just built in. And it's not doing anything yet. That's okay. But on an established page, don't, don't change your URLs.

Jared: Yeah, it could caveat. Can I, you might be touching on this a bit later, but I was another question I had written down for you and you've already kind of leaned in a bit to it, so I thought I'd present it now.

There's a decent amount of confusion. Between topics or terms like LSI, TF, IDF, uh, entities, um, semantically related. Can you try to help everyone maybe understand a bit the differences in these terms and which ones we should be talking about nowadays and why that those terms are the right ones to use in today's content?

Kyle: That's really nice is that, um, whichever tool you like to use for any of those. So if you're using some LSI tool or using a TF IDF tool or using an entity tool or from some other, from live some library or some API, uh, what's really great. Is they all give you about this in terms, um, it doesn't really matter which perspective you come at.

If you were looking at a giant bullseye, all those terms are probably within 70 or 80%, um, because they're all basically doing the same thing. Uh, entities get a little more nanny, uh, than a lot of contextual terms because that's what entities are. And these are things, a person place object, and in Google's world and event is also an entity or an organization.

Uh, but the nice thing is that, uh, I would, I would use the tool that you like, you know, the, the, the one that you liked the best. The only thing that I can really speak on with entities though, is that, um, if you just put in any on the page, let's say you use Google's, uh, um, NLP API and it spits out and he's NLP is a natural language processing.

Um, and Google has a tool and you can, um, it used to have a little free session. I think they just took that away. Um, but, uh, you can sign up for pop and you use it. Um, we do, we have that in the tool, but, uh, what it does is it spits out basically nouns. These are things that, um, the Google understands that are on your page, uh, concepts that are things that are on your page, and then also gives a, a category for your content and then a confidence where, how confident they think that you're in that category.

If you were to take those terms and just put them on your page, they don't help you rank. They don't, they don't move rank at all. But something that we've found that's interesting is that they do seem to help indexing that pages that have more or more entity rich seem to index faster. So it could be something where it's kind of helping people understand where to categorize this thing.

Uh, this piece of content, where to put it, and it's happier to put it into the index faster, but it's not necessarily anything that pushes rank. Uh, and that's, that's specifically on the nouns or on the entities on the other hand, When you get into LSI or you get into those contextual terms, you do see that pages that are using them will rank better.

Um, and that are, that are more, uh, and, uh, contextual term rich. I try to avoid using the term LSI cause I know people hate it, but we're really just talking about contextual terms, um, places that are, that have more term frequency, uh, with the contentious terms within those specific areas and not just necessarily on the page, but within the areas that we talked about, um, they do rank better.

Jared: Yeah. Okay. Okay, good. So going back to what you said earlier, the 80 20 is that, um, they're important, but the, um, the, the, the, the exact term you use is probably less

Kyle: than. Yeah, for sure. I wouldn't get into the weeds on, um, uh, this particular tool is giving me these and this particular tools give me that. I would just wonder whether you're most comfortable using, um, they're gonna be about the same and you can compare them.

And it's just simply throwing things into an Excel sheet and just matching it up. And if you see that none of these are about the same and you know, that's about the center. Okay. Okay. Great things that I. Gloss over maybe too quickly was that, so we've got that group a, there is a group B of next, most important, and those are, um, your, your other H tags, your , those are the, usually the subheadings are for the different sections on your page.

And the other thing that's super strong, uh, if it gets into that group, B is, uh, anchor text, the clickable text on a page. Um, the, uh, you can see these in, um, uh, uh, table of contents now where the you can click and you go down on the page, that's clickable text on the page, that's a strong signal, or it could be something that goes maybe to another page.

Like if you like this, check that out and you can have keywords in there. And that's also an extremely strong signal will kind of fall into that group. B uh, group C would be a lot of the old school stuff. Uh, bold italics, uh, image old. Uh, it has maybe a slight nudge, but not as much. You really want to focus on group and group B more than anything, but they're, those things do exist.

And then maybe a group D as I think there are things that aren't seen such as school. Um, open graph, which is what Facebook crawls and using Google also cross, um, uh, to, uh, HTML tags, those types of things that aren't really seeing. Um, if you're newer to SEO, don't even worry about those things. Modern CMS take care of the majority of that.

It's the kind of thing you want to move into. Maybe higher levels of SEO want to get in some fringe SEO. You have to worry about that, but otherwise I'm really group a and group B is really all you have to really focus on. So schema is

Jared: that far down the list.

Kyle: Yeah, show me that it works.

Jared: You know what I mean?

Don't ask me, I'm asking you.

Kyle: I think, um, I think there's some scheme of the works. Like I think I'm definitely want to get product schema, um, up and I think that could be a ranking factor. And then, um, schema is important for medic or eat considerations, expertise, authoritativeness, and trustworthiness, where you want identify that you're an actual business and you want identify their actual people.

And you can do that with schema. So you can say this is our organization, or this is our local business. Uh, this is our founder. This is our owner. That type of schema I think is great. Uh, and you should do for eat considerations, but I don't think it's anything that's going to push any rank in a backhanded way.

It does, because if you've done it and then somebody else drops because Google doesn't trust them and moves you up, then in a sense that did help you rank. But, um, I think it's more of a, it'll help you keep the rankings than you have.

Jared: Right. Okay. Good clarification. Okay. That's great. Um, one quick question for you, uh, on, uh, on, on what you were talking about when it comes to group C and.

D specifically, um, you, you, you're saying that these things like anchor text is important, it is in the group B category. I think you had it in, and I've always thought the anchor text is really important when you're talking about an incoming link or a link to a page. And the anchor Texas used to describe that page, that, that the link is pointing to your page ads.

But what you're saying is actually helps the page that it's on as well. Talk a little bit more about that. I've never heard about that.

Kyle: Yeah, the clickable text on a page is a very strong signal. Um, so putting your target keyword within, uh, anger, text or variations of it, or contextual terms is a very good idea.

Um, and usually the easiest way to do that is through like a table of contents, because there'll be a jumbling, it's just going to come down on the page and not necessarily take anybody away from your page. The other way to do that as like a next in previous, you know, um, if you have like, uh, an article type situation, you can put keywords within those next previous, um, those types of things.

Yeah. But, uh, that's an extremely strong signal. Okay, great.

Jared: Good. Okay. So you know, a bit of a recap, we've got an 80 20 of SEO, which is group. Uh, and green bay is all about, you know, title tag H one paragraph, you know, getting your keyword throughout these types of things, a URL, um, as well. And then we've got group B group

Kyle: C and grew bees where you can put, um, like those variations.

So, um, you know, you do a particular search for, um, your target keyword scroll to the bottom, and you're going to see related searches. Uh, those are often going to be variations of, of your target keyword. And those are great ideas. You see ones like, oh, I really liked that. That actually fits perfectly.

That's a great idea for an H to a different section on, on. Oh,

Jared: sorry, go ahead. I was going to say just on that level, just one final question in this sec in this section for me is you actually mentioned it. Attorney, lawyer, how it w how does one pick, which one to use as their target keyword versus which one to use as a secondary or a variation?

Do you use something like search volume? Do you try to deep dive the competitor analysis and determine which one is easier? Does it really matter when you know that they're very similar? How does one go about.

Kyle: Yeah. And this one actually comes up on the, some of the example pages too. Um, but, uh, the one thing had, I think was a very important takeaway for a lot of people is, especially if they're very new to SEO is that the secret is hiding in plain sight.

Google shows you what it likes and Google really doesn't hide the ball, you know, Google isn't getting crafty. So, um, when you do the search, so I swear

Jared: all of us,

Kyle: you know, lawyer, Seattle, or whatever term you like, right. Or what you're doing, do that search. And then look at the titles that Google is presenting, and you'll usually see that the majority have gone one way or.

The other thing that's really nice now with Google rewriting titles, that's a goldmine because if Google has rewritten the title, it's showing you exactly what is on. So now it's a great idea is look at the titles that are there, then look and see what their title tag is and see if Google's rewritten it.

And if people were written it, that tells you exactly what Google wants.

Jared: That's a very interesting point. You're exactly right. That is a way to, uh, make lemonade into lemons when it comes to some of the tidal rewriting stuff that's happening right now. The thing

Kyle: that cracks me up when like, you know, like, oh, it's a, girl's rewriting my tiles titles.

I'm like, yeah. Google just showed you exactly what to Google title. Easy

Jared: fix. Yeah. It's like having a direct line with Google for the first time ever in many ways. That's crazy, but yeah, carry on.

Kyle: Okay. Yeah. Getting your variations in those, uh, those other sections is a great idea. Again, this is kind of 80 20, or you don't really have to stress like.

You don't need a fancy tool. Like you can do all of this, just looking at Google. Right. And you know that, um, I need my target keyword in these four places. Okay. I'm going to grab some variations and I'll throw them in those, uh, H twos and threes. And then look to have some anchor texts here or there. And it's going to kind of directly around the page that really will take care of a lot of your SEO, a lot of what you need to do for your main keyword.

And then to build out pages that are ranking for keywords, because healthy pages rank for not just one term, they rank for hundreds or thousands of keywords. And so when you look at those related searches, you're putting something on the page of Google. It said this is related and pages that are semantically related.

They have sections that are semantically related, will rank for more keywords. The, um, the only I would, I'll also throw in there is that again, we're looking to try to rank for as many keywords as we can, or to be as healthy a page as we can get some of those people also ask questions when you do your keyword, and there's a section, uh, with questions, grab some of those questions and put them on the pages.

What's gonna happen is you can pick up those featured snippets or you can pick up those people. Also ask from those questions and again, give your page the best opportunity to rank for more and more keywords. And, uh, it didn't require any fancy tools. And we just looked at what Google was giving us, put it on the page and, um, bingo, Bango, bongo.

I think you're gonna get a lot of bang for your buck out of, out of your content

Jared: and the PAA people also ask is visible on practically. Um, is it, I mean, would you say it's visible on almost every search nowadays with Google pretty

Kyle: close. Like sometimes if you're like a technical term or an acronym, sometimes you're not seeing them, but, um, if you end up not getting one, simply turn your keyword into a question with like a who, what, when, where, why, and that almost always kicks one out for

Jared: you.

Good. Okay, great. And any tips on how to use those people also ask questions where to use them on the page. Uh, do you literally use the exact question or do you try to reframe it as a, more of a topic, you know, and remove the question aspect. I

Kyle: think that's completely up to how you want to take the page.

If you want an opportunity to win the question, it's better to have the question and have it as an age to somewhere on the page. Um, but it's not a bad technique at all to unquestion the question and use it as, as an issue because you'll usually get, I mean, somebody has asked this question, right? That's that's where it came from.

So you got to figure the people that are interested in this topic have this need for this information. So you could just turn it into a section on your page and you're gonna get, um, a really good content. Now what's really nice too, is if you've done it this way, where, um, you you've, you've used your related searches and you've used the people also.

You should be writing good content. Now you should be answering those things. And this is kind of that intersection where people talk about the good copy and SEO copy, or somehow two separate concepts. They're really not. If you've properly outlined, you know, with Google showing you these, these are the sections that I'm interested in.

And these are the questions that people want to know. If you then take those and build your page out of it, you're going to write great copy because Google is showing you that this is what people want. And then also it's not just what people want. Google likes it too, you know? And so like, you know, when you don't even have to worry about your accounts on contextual terms or variations at that point, because you should be getting them in, you know, you should be because you've properly answered those sections that you've you've properly, uh, outlined for your page.

Jared: Right. Okay. Okay. Now I might be stealing your thunder and if you're going to talk about this, stop me. Uh, for me, here's the big question I always have. It is what it seems to always boil down to it for me is do I take some of these people also ask questions and include them in our article? Or are they their own article and how do I know what Google wants?

Kyle: So this is just a judgment call. Um, if it makes sense to have it on the page, you know, it's not going to distract from say your sales pitch or, um, you know, what you want people to do next, you know? And it makes sense, like, yeah, get this on the page and then totally do it and put it on your, on your target page.

But you're a hundred percent, right. You're going to find a bunch that don't quite fit. You know, they're just a little off, wouldn't really make sense with the point of the page, hang onto those and then create a, you use them to create their own pages. So you have a question, answer the question, 500 words or so don't worry about SEL.

You're just answering it and you're getting it, uh, on the, in your H one and in your title tag. And what's great is that those usually ranked fairly quickly. And, uh, I like to do them in say groups of five to seven, interlink them together and then link them all to one target page one and one target page only.

So you've decided, okay, I've got these five people also have. Uh, they're not really good on the page, but they're great. Let's let's do them, answer them, put them up, link them together, link them to the target page what's going to happen is they rank quickly. They start to bring in traffic. Now you're getting in the right type of traffic because they're, they were related to your target keyword.

Um, and what you'll find is that sites that rank for more keywords do better. So while you're still kind of echoing that target page, maybe you're building some backlinks or any other signals, you like, well, that's going on, you're actually raising the authority of your site. And each of those pages with the links that you did to the target page are all getting stronger and then they're passing juice to each other.

So they're all choosing up each other. You're creating this little engine of good on your own site and you really did it without any of that. Yeah, because you really just put the question within the title and you didn't have to SEO anything at all. And now you're getting traffic. So you're getting keywords and traffic.

So Google is now trusting your site more. You're building up your own authority through these things. You might see that sometimes they have like zero search embraces, zero search. Those are fantastic because nobody's going after them. You can throw a page, you can get it on page one quite quickly. Page one, page two, no problem without doing any SEO.

And you're gonna start getting impressions and you start getting traffic and it's a fantastic technique.

Jared: Okay. How do we structure the single articles? You talked about building maybe five to seven. You liked that number of five to seven contextually related supporting articles based on these kind of people also ask queries.

How do we build those pages out? You talked about making sure that question is in the H one, but is it a similar structure of HTS in each threes or is it a 500 word kind of just dump in essence on the, on the specific topic and don't overthink it in terms of.

Kyle: I want to get these out as quickly as I can.

Uh, and I don't, and I want them to rank really without doing anything. Um, so I'm just going to put them up quickly. I'm going to answer them. I'll put them up. I'm not going to SCO them other than making sure that I've got the question exactly as I want it, uh, within the title tag and within the H one. Um, uh, I want to gain keywords from Google, uh, without SEO.

And one of the reasons you want to do that is that, um, you know, when you, when you do something that kind of takes you out of whatever your natural tear would be or your strength level, you're relying now on Google Google's blessing, Google is giving you something. I've never heard.

Jared: Those two words use

Kyle: Google, Google also take it away.

Jared: And

Kyle: I've heard about that and I want to avoid those situations. And what I believe actually is the Google. Penalizing you like when, when be like I got slab, I think people just took away whatever the boost was and dropped you back down just wherever you belong. And so what you want to do is you want to slowly raise where you belong and you want to raise your authority in the way to do that is through, um, finding the, putting out this content, uh, that Google will trust you immediately without any SEO.

And if you could do that, you can build out this content. So you build a moat around your site, so that as updates happen, you don't get affected as much. Now you can really decrease volatility and more evergreen longterm growth. So keep doing the SEO. You're doing know this will be then the layer you're adding in one to support that target page, but then also to support your entire site

Jared: or to raise a credibility or authority or whatever word you want to use there, you touched on zero search.

Um, I hear this question a decent amount. So I'll, I'll ask it, uh, uh, right now, um, uh, how do you find zero search terms? How do you embrace zero search? Um, especially if you're someone maybe who relapsed. Maybe a little too heavily on keyword, keyword research tools and that sort of thing.

Kyle: Well, if you just do that, you know, the, turn your keyword into a question you're going to get, you know, several people also ask if you throw any of those into a, uh, a tool they're almost always going to come back with zeros, or even if you put them into a keyword planner or something like that, you're going to come back with zeroes on them.

And that's an actual impossibility. There's no way it's like Googles and making these things up right now. Clearly somebody did this search, so there's at least one, you know, and you've got to figure if there's one person there's a hundred, you know, like they'd have the exact same question. It's kinda like, you know, when you're in class, if one person has a question, basically the entire class.

Jared: Yeah. It's as you mentioned, pages rank for more than one keyword. So not as though that article will only target that singular keyword, that only gets two searches a month or whatever it is. It'll all right. Yeah.

Kyle: Yeah. So I don't worry about it. Um, the, if you want to get a little more into this concept, uh, Chris Carter from circle, uh, he articulated this better than anyone I've seen and he calls it avalanche theory and you can search for that it's um, on builder society, uh, SEO with no resources and I highly recommend it.

Um, we were doing this in our agency and then when he put a framework to it, it really took us to another level. Um, we were doing this and then, then his framework, I thought it was just a really nice way to think about it. But the idea is you can determine what your level is or what your authority is based on the clicks you're getting or on the impressions you're getting.

And then the idea is that you target keywords within that. And then the idea is that, so you're building out content to support. And I, then I had a, what I do with it is I support my target pages with it and I'll build out virtual silos, which is what we just discussed. Um, but the idea is that you build within that tier until you move up to the next one, and then you build within that tier and then you move up to the next one, they build within that tier and you keep building.

So you keep doing all of your regular SEO, but at the same time, you're doing this content to move your natural tier higher and higher and higher. And then what you'll find is that your authority just starts to explode. And then when you launch those more difficult pages, they all start to do a lot better, like way out of the gate.

You know, like it's, it's it's night and day. And you're like, well, we really didn't do any SEO. All we did was keyword research and then created the content. But what happens is, is that it just raises the entire authority of the site. Oh, wow. That is,

Jared: that is that, that, that's a, that sounds like a fun read.

Kyle: Yeah. Um, you can also check out my course. I have a whole,

Jared: I'm guessing.

Kyle: Yeah, I did a, I did a whole case study on it. Um, we're one year into the case study where I started a site completely from scratch and I did it basically with no backlinks and just did, um, so there was tears because it was a completely brand new site.

And then we just started building content and you can see where we're at. We're doing pretty

Jared: well. Wow. Okay. Okay. And it's about a year in now.

Kyle: Yeah, I think, I think we're gonna, I think we're gonna pull the plug on the experiment because I think we proved that it worked,

Jared: but can you just tease like, uh, page views or some, some metric that gives you a kind of a real number to wrap your mind around?

Kyle: Um, I think we're getting a lot more impressions than we are clicks and, uh, we're in the CBD space. So I chose CBD because, um, it's dirty, right? It's, it's the, it's the worst of the worst. The one it's the most competitive, but it's also where people are really going at it. And I was like, you know, what, if I can do this, basically no backlinks, and it's going to show that you can do this.

It doesn't matter what, what your niche is. I feel that we're getting 60, 70, 80 clicks a day. And, um, uh, but our impressions are significantly higher. And I think the thing is just cause it's a crowded field, right. It's very difficult. Um, but, uh, yeah, from scratch and doing just, just content. So just doing keyword research, figuring out our tier posting and monitoring it and then, and then moving up, uh, tiers.

But what's fun now is like, you know, we post content and, uh, it's on page one, page two, uh, within a week, you know, again with just interlinking and from the, from the sites on authority. So it's really

Jared: cool. Amazing. Um, wow. You, you you've, you've touched on a couple times. Let me just ask this last question on this topic.

It wouldn't be an SEO podcast. If I didn't at least ask one question about link building, of course, sorry. I know it's an on-page podcast, but I have to sneak one link building question in to satisfy that, that section of the population. If I were to want need, you want to utilize links in this equation?

Am I building them to my target page in my building? And obviously we've heard maybe the concept of building into the supporting articles in this concept and this model that you're talking about, where do links

Kyle: play. I really like building them to the supporting patients. Um, for a couple of reasons, one, I want to juice up the whole engine, you know, because there are all interlinked, so they're all gonna pass juice to each other and they're still all gonna pass, choose up to the target page.

And then I don't really have to worry about, um, where I'm building these links know, because as long as the link hits in one of these five or one of these seven, you know, then I'm going to get a benefit from it. But, um, I am extremely risk adverse. Um, I'm, uh, I'm a way that we, um, our clients are banks. You know, we can't do anything.

They literally, they can't change their domains, you know? Like, and so like if something were to go horribly. You can burn down a supporting page. Now you can literally just take it away, but it's really hard to burn down a target pitch. You know, you've spent so much time and so much money and so much effort there.

Um, I really want to keep that as much as I can. So if links are coming in, we do try to direct them in campaigns to the, to the supporting pages.

Jared: Great point. I think that's probably an often mentioned point that, that you talk about in terms of where the kind of the safest avenue is as well. So

Kyle: safety first safety first.

Jared: Um, anything else before we move over to some live examples from Spencer's site?

Kyle: No, I think that covers what, uh, what are we going to chat about? So, yeah, dive on in, we have a. Okay.

Jared: Yeah. So let's transition. I mean, um, as a, as, as, as we kind of teased at the outset, uh, Spencer has owned the r.com and we've, we've gone through and, uh, you, and I've gone back and forth with Spencer as well.

And, um, I'm sure Spencer between an end to kind of get some of the, uh, the tips for a site here, but, um, uh, let's just kind of set the stage for what you want to do now and, and where we're going to, where we're going to take this on page, uh, masterclass of sorts we've had, and now apply it in real life. A couple, a couple of real life examples.

Kyle: So what I did is, uh, so we're gonna look at two pages. I threw them into pop, uh, just to get so we can get accounts and get a feel for what's going on. Um, and, uh, for those that are on the podcast, don't worry, um, seeing the, the reports isn't. Necessary. We'll we'll, we'll, we'll talk

Jared: about everything that works, unless you're a math nerd like me, you're just going to love seeing all the numbers pop up.

Kyle: People get very intimidated by, um, but yeah, it's

Jared: better. Maybe it's better if you're on the podcast and not the YouTube then.

Kyle: Um, but we'll go through it. And, um, uh, what I'll just do is I'll pick out the things or how I would approach, um, looking at the information that's there and where these pages are at and, and what I would do.

Jared: Great. Okay, great. Good. And we'll talk more about, I do have a couple questions for you about pop specifically the tool itself that maybe all lace in or we'll come back to at the very end. So sounds

Kyle: good. I'll click the, share my screen. All right. Let me know when you can see my screen.

Jared: I've got it here.

We're talking about ping pong tables in yard yards.

Kyle: All right. Let's start with yard. So. Obviously I've done these in advance. Um, one thing if I can mention on pop is that, um, we used to have, well, we still have, we have like a, a wizard that gives you kind of complete control over and throughout. But just over this last weekend, we just launched a version where it's just a one-page input, basically like put in your keyword, your location in your language and that's about it.

And then you get this. Um, the report just as a quick overview, there's a section for your search engine title. So we talked about the most, one of the most, the most important places is your, your title tag, your page title. That's your, your subheadings. Those are your age twos and threes, and then your main content.

And, um, uh, that's obviously your, your paragraph tags. And then within each of those sections, we have, uh, an important terms range. So the amount of time you want to get your important terms within that particular section. So in this example, a surgeon just idol has a range of two to five. Um, that's the important terms that we have that are our target keyword are variations or contextual terms that, um, pop has pulled out, that it likes the most.

We want to get those within that particular ranch and then the same with the subheadings and with the main content. Um, so for this particular page, some backstory here, so this page is ranking for how to level a yard and it's ranking number eight and a that gets nearly 6,000 searches a month. Uh, 5.9 K.

Um, so the first thing I want to say, and this is for anybody that's doing any kind of SEO, is that when you're on page one, when you're ranking, well, you want to go low and slow. Um, I wouldn't jump into any tool or any advice and do 30 things at once because it's much more likely that you can do something that's going to cause things to drop than to see any improvement.

So you want to do small things at a time as you can keep very, you can keep a very close eye on things. You can roll them back. If you feel like you've done something detrimental. Um, the first thing is that when you do this particular search, uh, how to, um, level a yard, um, for example, on the page, the, the URL is how to level your backyard.

And I think that's also the, um, uh, The, uh, the, the title that's on the page as well as backyard. And so the first thing is you want to think about like, is backyard and yard. Are they the same thing? And, um, in this case it looks like it, it looks like they are, um, I would just keep a close eye on that because Google can change.

So if you do the search as, as it is, you can see the basically Google Google's alternating between yard and backyard. That tells me it's, it's the same term and Google doesn't care and it's, it's not really favoring one or the other, but that's the kind of thing that maybe quarterly, um, I would keep an eye on.

Jared: I'm kind of going back to that question. I'd really about lawyer versus attorney. Yeah. And if they might switch down the road, you know, they could actually start to favor the one down the road

Kyle: a hundred percent. And those things actually do change, um, where Google was like, just all about lawyer. And then all of a sudden it switched to attorney that those things do actually happen.

So, um, in this particular case yard and backyard looked like the exact same term, um, 'cause the, you can look at the title tags, you can see that they're basically alternating through the syrups. I would just keep an eye on it. And then all of a sudden, one day you wake up and it's all backyard, then you realize, oh, Google has changed its mind.

And now like a backyard instead of yard. Um, one thing that I would mention is that, uh, there's this term lawn, and we don't have that, uh, within, uh, our title or our H one, I would try to get creative and maybe add the term. So I would leave basically the title, uh, things pretty much as they are, but if I could do like a pipe or a colon or something of that and get the term lawn in there, I would consider it if you can't, it's not the end of the world.

Um, but it's something that I would try. And the reason is that that's really the, the search engine title and the PHL are the two spots that were, uh, were just a little deficient, uh, on this particular page. I would note that, um, the term that we were working with was how to level yard. You could change that term as you're running it through pop to how to a level of backyard, and that would actually improve your score.

Some people really struggle with seeing lower numbers and if, if you need to see the number, just do that, cause you're gonna, it's not gonna affect anything. Um, but if you're okay with the numbers, as you see them and realize that you've done it correctly, then, then you're fine. But okay. But long would be something that I would look to do.

Um, one thing that we do give and pop are these content prompts. Um, and so, uh, you can see, um, the titles that are, that are there, uh, that your competitors have used, and you can kind of use that for, um, for examples and, um, A couple of, of your competitors. Do you have that word lawn in there? Uh, and what I would try to do is, is get creative with it and try to squeeze that term in the, um, when you look at your subheadings and your main content, uh, you'll notice that pop is giving you a green light that's because you're, you're right within the range.

You are on the low end of the range though. So what I would do is I would make that change to my titles and get lawn in there. And then I leave everything else as is to see if that gave me a boost. Um, uh, but I wouldn't want to change too much here, but what I would do is work on those supporting pages, the things that we talked about creating.

Uh, the supporting pages for this particular site. And I would get those from the people also ask, um, pop actually does provide those for, for your target keywords. So you can actually see that also within the content prompts, like how much does, uh, the costs, for example, uh, how do you level in an even yard, how you do it cheaply, how you do it manually.

So concepts with manually or, or cost or, um, a low cost would be terms I would look at, uh, to create support and content, uh, out of then also, if you look at the related keywords, you can also pull from that as well. Um, talking about a pool would be something you could get into talking about pavers, talking about sand, doing things by hand.

Those are all great concepts. I think a lot of term concepts. And create a lot of very useful content that people are clearly interested in and looking for. And I would create my supporting content out of that. So I did lawn in there. I'd leave everything else as is. And then I would build out a silo of supporting pages, linking them up, linking them together and see if that gave me the pushup.

And so either

Jared: determine if it, if it fits in this article on how to level a yard, maybe a Mooney, maybe how to level and even ground I'm looking at one of the related keywords. That seems to be very similar to how to level a yard and, you know, worthy of touching on here, but maybe, you know, um, uh, how to level a yard for a pool that might be a completely different supporting topic that you might write on.

And then link back as you talked about up to this, up to this, uh, this page right

Kyle: here, but one thing you do want to be a little bit careful with when you're looking at these related keywords and the related questions is that they often are pretty close to the target keyword. I try to avoid using the target keyword when possible.

So I would, um, Maybe change things up just a little bit, just so I don't run into any kind of cannibalization issues because those can really happen. Um, so, uh, I would tweak it just a bit, but not too much. And, um, you know, just using these concepts, I think is what you would want to do.

Jared: Exactly. I, I, if I can just double down on that, because I see this happen a decent amount, at least in the queries I do.

You'll see, let's use this as an example, but you'll see how the level of yard, and then you'll see pages that are ranking that are how to level a yard for a pool, how to level a yard for a patio, how to level a yard for, uh, you know, grass have a level of yard for, I'm just making stuff up now, swing set.

And they have every age too, is that is obviously it depends, right? Like it depends on the query, but you're, you touched on it. Like all of those in, in one world could be their own article, but then they would all be cannibalizing in theory, the idea of how to level yards. Is it really just about digging into the specifics on that article?

Or are there any general tips you have found in your testing that can help guide that situation? Yeah. You

Kyle: want to see if the terms are related, so, uh, that, that you've got your primary keyword had a level of yard. Is this like a little yard for a pool? Is that a secondary key? Where is that pool term? A secondary keyword to the primary and how you do that as you do the search for the pool and you see if new pages come up, um, or if that original set of pages comes up.

Now, if it's all the large yard level pages, are they pretty much coming up or are you getting a completely new set of pages that are all just. Uh, related then, you know, they're separate times. And so you want to do the searches and see what sites come up and at the same sites are coming up as the original, and then there are secondary, let me do, can win it on that target page.

Um, but if you see that, uh, new sites are coming up or new pages are coming up, then you know, you, they're not something that you want to work together in tandem, like on the same page. And you would need a separate page for

Jared: them, the answers right in front of you. That's what you've been

Kyle: saying. Exactly.

Right. And again, it doesn't take a fancy tool. It just takes, you know, 10, 15 minutes on Google. Right. And clicking around a bit. Um, but uh, for this particular page then, so I'd see how it went with lawn. I'd see how it went with my silo. That's gonna take a little bit time. That's that's a couple months worth of work.

Um, when you think about logistically, you're getting five to seven articles, the keyword research, getting them linked together, getting through whatever webmaster issues you have. Give yourself six weeks on that. Um, you're then we want to give yourself a few cash dates. You want to make sure that all of those things can cash and get seen by Google and perform.

So we're looking at a month there. So right around that time, that's when I would look at, if I didn't get any movement and I can see that everything's cash and Google is crawling. It's just still not getting any more love. Remember, you were on the low end for your subheadings and your main content. Then I would look to add sections to get those numbers up and I'd try to push them more towards the middle range.

Um, then just kind of scraping and kind of where they are right now on the very low end. So that's the approach that I would take for this particular patient

Jared: valuable that you kind of walked through the steps because you can look at a report like this, or you can even, again, like you said, if you don't have pop in, you're kind of doing a lot of it manually.

You can find a lot of maybe gaps between where your article is and other articles, but knowing maybe the order of operations or at least how to interpret some of these things and then understanding logically how to approach. From an operations from an order standpoint, that's really valuable to hear because it's so easy to just open up one of these and just go through and try to get everything green as it were, but really what you underscored is, Hey, the supporting content is really the biggest gap here and the other stuff is almost secondary in comparison.

Kyle: Yeah, I totally agree. Um, yeah. Cool. To move on to the next

Jared: patient. Let's do it. Yeah. And this would be, we were going from like a, how to type article now into a real affiliate style keyword, a best of a targeting like an affiliate topics. So that'll be a good transition to, to see both sides.

Kyle: Yes. So the target keyword here is best outdoor ping pong table.

And you'll notice for those that can see the scores are different. So the score on the, um, on the first one was a 59.8 and it's actually super close. That's not. Far to get things up, but the score on this other one is 30 and keep in mind those scores they're relative to this report. Meaning how well have you followed the recommendations pop has on the custom side, more data than you could possibly hope to see in SEO.

And what we've done on this side is we've run another algorithm and said, if we were making these decisions, this is what we're gonna do now, the idea of, well, you could do all the decisions on your own, and then within these, within the pop pro reports, but essentially we've taken all of that data, crunched it down to this to kinda help you make some decisions.

So the scores here are just how well have you followed those particular conditions? You can see that the score for the ping pong table stage page is much lower. It's at a 30.2, which means there's, there's more work, uh, that we can do here. It's going to slip into the report and, um, The one thing that popped out to me in the search engine, title and page tell areas that there are a lot of phrases, um, that we could add pop, I think is seeing an opportunity to add something here.

But if you look at it, they're a bit clunky. Um, and I didn't, I don't particularly like them. Uh, and I think it's because a lot of the competitors, uh, have names that contain phrases or contain keywords or, or variations. I think that's where that's coming from. So you could look to add one of these things.

I wouldn't stress too much about it because we do have the target keyword and it's a long phrase, uh, best outdoor ping pong table is a very long phrase and we have it on the page and, and that's fine. Um, oh one small note, table and tables. Uh, again, it looks like Google is treating them as. Uh, term. And so, uh, I think our URL and our and, and title tag here, our tables we're ranking for a table.

Um, uh, it looks like they're the same term I would just leave as is. And because that's so long, even the Papa saying like, Hey, there would be an edge here. Maybe if we added, uh, another, uh, variation in here, um, I wouldn't sweat it. I would, I would, for now I would leave that as,

Jared: so what you're basically saying is I'm looking at the screen and saying, Hey, you need to add best outdoor ping pong table.

And the reality is we've addressed that by having outdoor best outdoor ping pong tables in your, you know, from what you can see, it's saying it's the same thing as it goes eyes.

Kyle: Exactly. Right. And then some of the other examples are, you know, outdoor table tennis, outdoor ping pong, table, outdoor ping pong tables without the word best.

Um, So that's pretty clunky with such a long phrase. So, um, it's one of the things I was just kinda keep this in my back pocket, where if we feel like maybe there is some room and we haven't tried that, then I would go after it. But otherwise, because it's so long, I would just leave it as is where we can really get some work in though our subheadings and in the main content, we're, we're pretty low on both of those.

And within this page, as you mentioned, it's an affiliate page, so it has the table of contents and it has a whole bunch of, um, H two and H three opportunity. Like they're already on the page. What's interesting is that I think probably for readability would be my guess on the, on the driving issue that we didn't get into a lot of terms.

We don't need to add too many. And I think, um, so, uh, there are times where just saying tables, uh, I think we could expand that out to add in outdoor or ping pong, uh, or a couple of other terms. I think we could get those in and then it won't affect readability. Um, but I think it will definitely affect.

The other thing in the main content area. So we are a bit low on our range. Um, I want to take you back up to the total, um, word count. These are huge pages by the way. So we're talking nearly 5,000 words for a target set that you clearly, this is a lot of affiliates, uh, within, within the space, right? And we're at 4,500, so we've written a ton.

But the important point is that we've written a lot of words who we're still light on our important terms. It's almost a double whammy where you have written a lot, but not the right thing. So you're like, oh, I'm right within the target range. And I'm within, you know, you are within physical word count, but you're not within a target terms.

The important terms we need to get on the page. So we're very light in terms of our term frequency, uh, within our main content. So what I would probably look to do here is add some sections. We do have about 500 words to get to around a target anyway. Um, so I would look to add some sections, uh, from, uh, uh, say some people also ask or from, um, even maybe from some of the NLP terms, you can see the pop pulls in this little blue tag, uh, NLP terms, one NLP term.

That's interesting would be the crossover table. That's a term that seems to come up and, uh, we could talk about what is a crossover table. Um, something from the people also ask, uh, which are also in the content promise zone. I will click over whatever about, uh, are these tables weatherproof, and can you get them wet?

And I think if we added sections along those lines, uh, we would get a lot of these terms here that were light on. And I don't think it'd be too tricky. So for this particular. Page, what I would do is I would, um, add terms to my, uh, subheadings that exist. And then I would add a new section or two, one on getting the table wet or weatherproofing and the one on crossover.

And I think that'll increase the terms. I think for this page, uh, doing that might actually have a much bigger impact moving it, maybe from that ate up a couple of spots because our term frequency within our content is so light.

Jared: Yeah. I think we failed to mention it earlier. Like this is ranking, I believe it is number eight, right?

For the target, the target phrase. Um, and so, you know, some of these changes could have an impact that gets you into it. And, and that's just for people who are brand new at this, um, when you're, when you're on the bottom of page one, there's huge opportunity because you're really not getting very many clicks, even though you're so close, right?

Like you've done all this work and your page is doing really well overall. But it's almost, um, it's almost pointless because it's current state at spot eight. You're just not getting very many of the clicks. It's a disproportionate share of clicks that go to the top three and the top.

Kyle: 100% and like getting above the fold is so nice.

And I think because like this particular page in this situation that it's light on, um, the important terms within the body, it's a low risk play to add a section to a page, not you're not putting the page in jeopardy by adding a new section, it's just going to raise your contextual terms. So I think it's a low risk move that can bring in, um, a really nice games.

Jared: I'm seeing your approach and, you know, correct me if I'm wrong here, but the approach I'm watching you take, as I'm looking at the screen, I'm seeing the terms that are in front of us, and I'm hearing how you talk about it. You're really taking all this information in and looking for the bigger picture in it.

If I'm, if I don't want to oversell, summarize what you're doing. Um, and how important is that in, in the way you're approaching it versus say, um, I'm also looking here and I see the word pink. Has been used nine times, but the, the, the pop report is saying to use it 20 to 33, am I better approaching this report from the high level and trying to find the broad areas where I can maybe add some content or make adjustments and how different is that compared to just going in and saying, okay, command F I've got ping pong on here.

Nine times. Let's get this up to 20. And then I can check that box off. You know, like there's two different approaches. I mean,

Kyle: I know people that do that and they're actually pretty successful, but I think that would drive me insane. That's not the way that I necessarily want to do it. Um, I think if you looked at it from the subheadings first, you know, uh, you're going to get those sections with these better counts.

And then what happens is then come in for an SEO edit after, and then you're just tweaking a word here and there rather than looking at the content that you haven't tried to jam ping pong table, and nine more times or 10 more times, or whatever you need. I would look at sections first, build out those sections and tweak those, like dip the content or add content, those sections, and then do an SEO edit afterwards.

And then you can, if you got to, Hey, we need to bump this up just a couple of times. It's usually a lot easier to do it that way.

Jared: Okay. I, I, um, I think we've all seen pages where. It sure. Looks like they've taken a report like this. Very literally they read like hit and I think it's obvious, but I'll at least just stay at like these reports.

Aren't really trying to detract from readability as much as they're trying to understand the math behind what topics Google really needs to see address

Kyle: a hundred percent. And I, and as I mentioned before, if you do it from the perspective of let's outline this page, uh, and then right, you're going to write a better page.

Um, but I think everybody remembers sixth grade when they were told to do that and they didn't do it. And then they just wrote a terrible essay, you know, and you're like, oh, I really should have outlined it. And you get to the next one. You're like, I should have long is one and you still don't do it. And he still write a terrible essay.

Um, it's the same thing as, as adults with our webpages. So I think we just sit down and we just try to start writing and, um, and you really end up with a, a God awful mess for humans and then also for Google as well. So, um, That outlining structure of the page, I think is, is mission critical because you're going to see, you're going to get close to these counts when you do it that way.

And then it's just a small SEO edit at the end to make sure you're getting, giving them the, the algorithm, the math that it needs.

Jared: Let's walk through the exercise again on this one, because we talked about, um, you, you, you highlighted in the how to level a yard example earlier that there was a need for additional supporting content.

Do you see that need here? And how are you evaluating that when it comes to the ping pong table, or I always

Kyle: see that I think, um, like I think the mantra that should be in people's minds and like, what should we be doing? Right. Content we should be, we should be creating content within our tier. And for sure.

So, um, with this particular one, like, so with the level yard, we're really just adding a term within our title. And then I would spend the majority of my time on, on the content. But this there's more work to do. So I would do that first on our target page, but then the next thing I'm doing once that's done is creating out those, uh, supporting pages.

And so if we head over to the content prompts, um, uh, you know, uh, can you keep the ping-pong table outside? That's sensitive because outdoors is a, is a concept. Can you just leave it outside for forever? Um, if you didn't like the idea of weather proof, we're getting wet on the, on the site. That's a great thing to do, um, uh, for a supporting article as well.

And then you can get into cost terms, uh, you know, like what's the, the, you know, you can actually really get into cost benefit analysis of like, well, this is a thousand dollar table, but it'll last three years versus this one, that's a $300 table. Um, but it's, it's gone in six months, you know? So you re upping all the time, you get into those sorts of things.

And then if you look at the related keywords, a lot of those look to me like brand names, um, um, So you're probably talking about those on the target page, right. Um, because this is an affiliate page, so we're probably selling them, I would guess. Uh, so those are probably going on, uh, uh, already onto the target page with you.

And those will be good age two-stage threes. Um, because then you could win them pretty easily by optimizing for that. Uh, what is the best ping pong table?

Jared: Let me ask you a tough question about that. Um, let's say Spencer is the world's expert on ping pong tables, right? I had, of course, I'm sure he is. And let's say Spencer knows for a fact, because he's the expert that the Juul outdoor ping pong table is not even worth a mention in a, in a, in a buying guide.

It's a terrible table. And he is strongly opinion about that. He knows that it's a terrible table and he doesn't mention it. But here we see. And again, I'm reading from the report that it's a, it's a keyword that looks like it has important. It's a brand that it looks like probably a lot of other people are referencing.

Um, obviously I'm having fun with the idea of it, but you get the point, like when you're missing a brand on an affiliate keyword, or you're missing something that others are addressing, but you don't think is important and expert wise, you don't think it should be on a page. How do you address that?

Kyle: Well, you do the article separately, all reviews.

Don't have to be good reviews. So do a negative review or non-native revoke a, an honest, um, uh, review of that particular thing. But then on the page, you're like, where's, JeWella, you know, you know, where's the doula thing and you now you're linking, you're getting that anchor text on the page and you're linking now to another page on your site.

So you're getting it in that very strong area. You still have a chance to win it on that page or on the, um, on the, uh, page that you specifically built for it, for that. That's really good.

Jared: That's really good. I have to say that's really good. That's a great way to approach it. Uh, so in essence, uh, our on-page SEO class boils down to two, a lot of content really.

I mean, it really does come down to supporting content is almost your best friend. And on page SEO, I don't want to over, I don't want to bury the lead there, but that's certainly a big takeaway that I wasn't expecting to get from today,

Kyle: you know? And, um, time-wise like if you're just getting into it and you're, you've kind of identified where your tears and you start to go, uh, two, three months is usually a, a pretty fair amount of time to give it.

And, uh, once he kind of hit that three month, three month, four, you'll see some, some nice gains. Uh that's about how. So page

Jared: optimizer pro is the tool we're using here. And, um, you know, talk a little bit about this tool and how people can access it. Is it something where, um, it's a software that, that you can use on an ongoing basis and you run pages on your website.

Can you also use it to plan out contents? You don't run into these issues after you publish content? Um, you know, how are people what's the use case for most people when it comes to pop?

Kyle: So we are an OnPage tool and that's what we try to do. And so each time that we update the tool and we're staying on top of Google's algorithm and what's going on there, it's really just to focus solely on, on on-page.

The part that we help you with with content would be this, this content prompt area where you can get, uh, the related questions and related searches and that sort of thing. Um, but otherwise, what we want to do is help you do better on page for your target page. And, um, that's what we're here to do. And, uh, we're priced, uh, in a way, so you don't have to make a decision between us.

You know, you can still use your MAs your age routes, your SEM rush, majestic, whatever you like for a more comprehensive tool. Like if you're looking for all those particular things, but then when it comes down to the on-page aspect, um, I think we're better than all of them combined. Um, but they're obviously doing backlinks and they're helping with keyword research and stuff like that because that's what they're good at and what we're good at as the on-page.

Jared: And would it be, would it be suffice to say that you're getting the benefit with pop of all the testing that you do, uh, at your agency with your clients and, um, and over internet marketing?

Kyle: That's right. And, uh, I also have a us patent on a, if something is, or is not a ranking factor within Google's algorithm and all that gets wrapped up into the research that we do and what we spit out.

And we're running these tests constantly to make sure that we're, we're giving accurate information.

Jared: Oh, wow. That's wonderful. Well, we, um, uh, you know, we have, uh, uh, a discount for people who are listening to take advantage of pop, and we'll include that in the show notes and, uh, uh, make sure that people have that advance, uh, to take advantage of, sorry.

Um, I think, uh, what, are there any other ways that we didn't go through today, uh, with these examples that, you know, like any high-level ways that people are, are also using pop to, to kind of win on page?

Kyle: Well, Yeah. I mean, going through their, their, their top level pages is the way to go. The one other thing that you would do is, so from time to time, one of those supporting pages is going to take off, you know, you, you put it up, you thought it was a zero search.

Uh, it turns out it's a 2000 search and you're on page, you know, bottom of page one. So what people often do there is they'll pop those pages then. So, and what I mentioned before that you didn't do any of the, of the OnBase. You circle back either where it lives within, it's a supporting structure, but then do on-page optimization for that and then build out a supporting set for it.

Because now it's, it's, it's performing as a rockstar. So, um, you want to pump. So, yeah. So then you'd go back through your supporting pages that are doing well and pop them as

Jared: well. Yeah. Sorry, I didn't ask the question very well, but you, you grabbed it and ran with it. That was really what I was trying to say is if I'm gonna, if I'm going to sign up for pop, you know, what's my best use case there.

It's going after these keywords are the keywords kind of what, we're, what we did with Spencer's example here, but then you kind of even ran with it further and said, Hey, now go into some of those supporting pages and even, um, optimize those

Kyle: I can take off. And some of them, you know, you think, wow, this has 10 searches and that's really what it has.

Uh, but more often than not, it says 10 searches. And if it's a few hundred or even a few thousand, and that's great, and then that's an opportunity to, to them. You've already got this thing is doing pretty well. Go back through and do a little more scientific work on it with pop and then, uh, it'll rank a little bit better.

Yeah. Uh, I

Jared: th the true definition of rabbit trail comes to mind right now. It seems like an endless amount of, uh, of optimization opportunities that you can probably discover for a site, uh, that, that.

Kyle: For sure. For sure. For sure.

Jared: Um, as we wrap up any final thoughts, anything that we didn't touch on that you think is really important?

I mean, we touched on so much. I would, I would almost, uh, I'm looking back over. I wouldn't even want to try to recap everything we talked about. We'd be here for another 20 minutes, but you know, any big topics that we, that, that, that you think are important to kind of wrap up.

Kyle: I mean, I think we hit it all.

I think, um, some of the bigger concepts are, um, uh, the secrets hiding in plain sight. Now Google shows you what, what the likes, um, don't try to teach Google something new, like let Google guide you and to, um, where you can create pages that are going to do pretty well. Um, you don't need to use pop to be successful.

Uh, you can do what we talked about, some of the high levels of where you're putting your target keyword in that group, a, your variations in your group B and you're building out supporting pages. And, um, for a lot of people, that's all you need to do, you know, for a lot of niches, that's all you need to do.

Once you feel that things are getting a little more competitive or you want to kind of step things up a bit that's where pop would come in, but then you can get a little more information about your target pages and what you want to do to satisfy that. But, uh, um, you definitely don't need it. You can be very successful without it.

And, uh, um, I think if you follow the stuff we talked about first, I think most people will do very well, uh, with that. And then once you kind of want to step that up to the next level, that's where that's where you can jump into new

Jared: yep. Jumping in and optimize it even further. And I think you ought to, uh, you want to, uh, coined the phrase, Google blessing.

I also liked that a lot.

Kyle: Uh, maybe it wasn't, you can take it

Jared: away and Google take it away.

Kyle: You know, it's funny. No, nobody thinks about it as a blessing. You know, everyone thinks like, oh, I did this, you know, like, like, you know, I optimize this page and I did this back link and now I'm on page one, but then once they drop off page one, well, that was Google, Google, you know, that was all Google's fault.

You know,

Jared: I run a, a marketing agency and I've had to have the conversation a couple of times with clients. And I've had to say, you know, with all due respect, we really shouldn't have been ranking for that keyword to begin with. Right. To be honest. And it was good while it lasted. You know, the page probably ranking for are about the type of stuff it should be at this point.

So let's be honest, a hundred percent

Kyle: correct.

Jared: Oh my God. That's the Google blessing right there.

Kyle: Yeah, exactly. Like we were really getting something and we don't know why and Google didn't know why either. And then Google

Jared: figured out that she's going to get and then, you know, so yeah, that's the true definition of go and go.

And that's also Google take us away as well. We could probably end and wrap up there. Kyle, thank you so much for bringing just so many great insights and laid it out in such a simple fashion that we can all follow. Um, I really appreciate it. It's been a real pleasure and a real treat to get to talk to you today.

So thank you for joining us.

Kyle: Thanks so much for having me. It was, it was a lot of fun. I enjoyed it.

Jared: Yeah. All right. Until next.

Related Posts

Are Google AI Results (SGE) Going Away? Getting Traffic from Facebook + 2 Weird Niche Sites

I Make $10k to $30k Per Month Working Part Time On My Sweet Food Blog

Is Google Really Getting Worse? + Weird Niche Sites About Arcade Sticks and Emojis

Valuable Lessons Amy Aitman Learned From Managing 150+ Niche Websites

How Google Shapes the Internet + Google Debunks Ranking Factors and 2 Weird Niche Sites